Are We Setting Our Sons Up To Fail?

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Are we setting our sons up to fail?

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Learn the difference between discipline and punishment. We're hardwired to protect and we have to be careful how we use that protection instinct and to do it correctly. Kids don't care what you say, it's what you do. Why do I have to tell my kid six times? It's just because the kids used to knowing that the first six times they could ignore you. You told them that.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

This is Bill BetterDads. I'm your host, Ramon Weatherall. That's the conversation that we're having today. Joining me today to have that conversation is Dr. H. So, Dr. H, I got a few questions that I want to ask you on this subject of setting our sons up to fail, because that's what Bill Better Dads is all about. It's helping the father. Helping fathers be better fathers. I've been dying to ask you the first question I want to ask you is what are fathers doing that with good intentions that could be helping our sons actually fail in the future. So we got good intentions for what we're doing, but what we're doing isn't really productive. What are some of the things that you've seen in your career that we're doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Good question. I guess one of the things I've heard too often from fathers, well, yeah, maybe it's not right, but this is what my dad did, and I guess I'm okay. And it's usually someone who's been physically abused to some extent by their father or had harsh punishments. And they go to repeat it and it's not really working, and they're in conflict with their female partner, their wives, whoever else is raising the kids. And what I've tried to get those dads to understand is the difference between discipline and punishment. That just a quick punishment, I know it's faster, a little whacking behind, whatever is seems to be faster, but doesn't get to the core. And doing discipline takes a little bit more time. We have to be good listeners, and we have to, our goal is to get them to take responsibility for their behavior, not just feel punished. Because you know what happens. If all they're doing is getting punished, they're going to find a way to work around it. They'll lie, they'll cheat, they'll do something to keep away from getting that punishment. And that's not going to work in the long term. So that's what the first thing is. Learn the difference between discipline and punishment. Take the time to listen. And then when you decide consequences, the kid understands why. And you also have a plan for change, and you're getting true responsibility for them taking action. So that's one thing dads who are there and present and trying and have good intentions sometimes really mess up.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That's that's a great thing that you highlighted the difference between discipline and punishment. Because a lot of times we get it, we just bunch it all together. To some people, there's no difference. If you ask them the difference, they be like, what do you mean? There's no difference. And that's the same thing. But I'm glad you pointed that out. There is a difference between discipline and punishment. Here's another question I got for you. How can fathers tell the difference between helping their son too much that is actually hurting them? I don't know if you've seen the video of the father when he ran out on the field and tripped the boy during a football game. It's like a nine-year-old boy, the father runs out on the field and he trips the boy because it was a bad play. He didn't it was a bad play before, and the father runs out on the field. How can we avoid things like that? Fathers trying to help their sons too much and trying to help them like avoid consequences in life.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Sure. Well, there are two extremes. The one extreme you mentioned, and it's usually a parent who's living through their child. You know, instead of saying that's their journey and that's their story, and if they didn't do something right on the field of that, it's not your journey, and that's not the time to protect. We've got to be real careful. I know men were hardwired to protect, and we have to be careful how we use that protection instinct and to do it correctly. The other extreme is what we call helicoptering parenting or parenting doing too much to try to protect their kid, and that's bad too, because the kids don't learn any how to bounce back. Resilience. I remember doing a workshop for some folks on how to build resilience for our kids. In other words, you've got to find that fine line where let them fail a little bit while you're still making sure it's not too serious. But if they don't face disappointment on their own and get some measure to try to resolve it on their own, they're not building those characteristics of a lifelong to be able, when they grow up and adults or young adults, to be able to deal with life setbacks and deal with it well. So it's important for a dad who wants to protect, one, to make sure you're not protecting just for yourself, and two, make sure your protection is adequate, but you're still giving your son a chance to work things out for themselves. So for example, let's say your son came home, he was a fifth grader, and said he was being bullied in school. The overprotective father might immediately say, I'm gonna get to that school, I'm gonna find out who the parent is. Tell me, son, what happened? Let's talk about how you can handle it. Have you reported it? How do you respond? Has this happened? Give them some tools and give them the chance to work it out. If it doesn't work out, then you can intervene. But give your kid a chance to work it out and give them the guidance to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

That's interesting that you said that because some people might say that parent isn't doing enough. I do agree with you that you gotta give them some tools to be able to handle this because we all know you can't be with them all the time.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Exactly. So it's defining support. You know, we want to support our kids. And I've told parents, you know, let's say your kids in recreational soccer or or basketball, you don't have to go and sit through every practice and scream and yell, kick the ball, Johnny, or that's a great shot. I mean, there's a limit. Your kids should be playing for themselves. I know, you know, I'm the old school. I grew up in the city, I played in the schoolyard. We didn't have adults when we had a dispute. We had to work it out among ourselves, we didn't have referees, you know. So you learn how to get along with people, how to resolve problems, and you couldn't turn to adult every time something went wrong. And unfortunately, depending where you live and conditions, you know, that could break down. On the other hand, you won't want your kid out on the street without supervision, all on our own, and not give a damn what's going on, and that's the other extreme. So again, it's the middle ground.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

When I grew up, like you said, we had to learn, we had to work things out ourselves. We went to different neighborhoods and we knew hey, if something happens, it's it's on us to, you know, to deal with it. And the consequences you have to deal with. Here's another question I got. What's some of the warning signs that a father can have that a boy is he's growing up physically, but emotionally, responsibility-wise, resilient-wise, his uh emotional intelligence isn't there. What's some of the warning signs you can tell that, like you said, you got this fifth grader that he's growing, but in other ways you could tell that he's not growing.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah, one thing you got to respect the temperament of your kid. If your kid tends to be an introvert, doesn't need a lot of friends, kind of that, and that's his normal mood, then you don't have to intervene. But if your kid's an outgoing kid and then he's quiet and silent, that's the time to say, something's cooking. And that's when you say, hey son, you know, what's going on? You're not your usual self. Usually in the morning, you're very chatty talking, you know, this morning you got a look on your face, something's going on. Tell me. Let's let me hear what's going on. So it's reading your child's behavior. And when it's different from the norm, that's always a good sign that something's cooking. I I ran some schools for kids with very serious behavioral problems. And I knew walking in the door, looking at that kid's face, who I better talk to quickly. Because if I didn't deal with them then, something was going to happen really bad during the day. So if I saw a kid come off the bus who's normally, you know, fooling around and jerking and telling jokes and that, and walks in that day with his head down, not talking to anybody. I knew if I don't get to that kid first, he's gonna explode. So it's reading the emotions and when it's different from the normal pattern, then you gotta go in there and don't just say, oh no, no, Dad, it's nothing. If it, you know, you gotta dig a little bit. Wait a minute. It's not nothing. Something's really bothering you. And we need to talk about it. So when you establish that, then you can pick it up when your kid is not, your son is not responding the way you normally expect them to respond.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

That's really good. And you really need to kind of like you said, start establishing that early. I because I have a 10-year-old. I have a 10-year-old myself. I can tell, you know, you if they have a bad day, you don't I don't have to ask. I can tell when they come in, they he comes in the house. What are some of the conversations that a father should have with his son or daughter before they reach 18? What are some of the most important conversations? Because I'm sure a lot of that a lot of dads that are watching this, they want to know, okay, I don't I only get one shot at this with this kid. What are some of the conversations that I need to have?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Okay. The good thing you just mentioned, it shouldn't be one shot. See, that's why in my book, Family Centered Parenting, I so much emphasize having regular family meetings. So when you do have these hot topics, what I call the hot topics, you know, we know what they are: sex and drugs. Those are the two biggies. And if you start having a conversation, if the child is used to talking, having e-family meetings, you wait, you have a chance to talk before there's a crisis. You bring it up. By the way, you bring up a hypothetical. Say you were out with a bunch of your friends and someone, you know, said, Hey, try some weed, and you've never done it. How are you going to deal with that? Well, if you practice in a family meeting and give the kid tools of how he might deal with that situation, when it actually happens, they're prepared and ready. So have the conversation, build the the uh ritual with your son and your daughter to have family meetings, so talking about life and what's going on is normal. And then at the time you start bringing up the subjects depending upon their age and what you think they're going to confront. Because if they have the tools before it happens, they're better able to cope with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Good. So having having some type of family meeting regularly, if it maybe might might be at the dinner table or exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Have a ritual, find a time. It could be after church on Sundays, dinner on one particular night when you know it's not busy. Everybody puts away their phones, even if there's nothing going on other than the whole family checking in. How are we all doing this week? What's going on? We're planning this, we're planning that. And then if there is an issue, that's a good time to do it. It's a good time to set rules for the family. You know, I always talk about, I always have this argument with some parents about the word negotiation. Oh man, I negotiate with my kid, that's a dirty word. Well, it's not negotiating, it's when you negotiate, not should you negotiate. You negotiate before you have a rule. So if you want chores in the house or rules, get some input from the kid and talk about it in a family meeting. And then you give your position. Why, as a parent, you expect this rule. And then you hear their answer, then you both come up with a rule. But once the rule is set, then you don't negotiate. So you negotiate the rule to begin with, but once you have a rule, no, no back and forth. That's it. You broke the rule, here are this is what we're going to do about it. So that's why I get confusion from some parents when they hear, oh, negotiate, oh no, you know. Yeah, there isn't a time. There is a time that you could negotiate, and there's a time you can't. I'll give you, you know, it's so important for kids to have the more they have ownership in a rule, the more likely to follow it. And that's what I found with my kids growing up. When they had input and we could discuss why I wanted that rule, and they could give some of their input, maybe, you know, like a curfew. So I might say, yeah, for my teenager, I want you home at 10 o'clock on Friday. And then the teenager said, Yeah, dad, 10 o'clock, but a lot's still going on till 10:30. Why can't it be 10:30? Then the parent should answer honestly. Well, I'm one when I go to bed at night and shut the door, I want my kid at home. And I go to bed maybe about a quarter to eleven. So you know what? I can live with 10:30. So now you had some give and take. The kid had some input, they own the rule. I guarantee you that kid would be far less likely to break curfew because they own the rule.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

That is an excellent point. And I think I gotta give a salute to my dad. He did that, maybe not even knowing that's the kind of dad he was, too. And I think that's a really great point. And the point you made about a lot of parents say, Oh, negotiate. I don't negotiate with my kids, but like in reading your book as far as I got, you kind of made the point that negotiations happen everywhere. You know what I'm saying? They happen everywhere. When your kid goes to work and they happen everywhere, so you're really preparing them for the real world to learn how to negotiate.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

You know, all life experiences, you're right. Everything, your interactions and that. But it's important, you know, you're not, I have to, especially the dads, you're not giving up your authority when you have that conversation. You're still your dad, you're still in charge, you're still the boss, but because you listen and process with your kid, you're not giving up your authority. So I hate that t-shirt that said, do it because I'm the dad, that kind of thing. You know, that's not enough. You know, you got to do harder than just say, no, I'm the dad, and I want it this way, because you're not gonna get the buy-in from the kid in respect. And also, it's so important, and you have it, you know, you're you're you're a fifth grader, you're 10-year-old, you want to build a lifetime. I'm older. I have grown parent kids and grandkids. I know the stuff I did as a young parent means I have a much better adult relationship with my children. You're laying a lifelong foundation. And if you don't do it early, then it I've parents all of a sudden they can't handle the teenager. Well, if you started the right way earlier, you would have no problem with your teenager. They'd be a lot easier to deal with. So those are the kinds of things I remind, especially dads, even more than moms, you know, you don't lose your authority by being that kind of dad.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Exactly, exactly. Here's another question I got I got for you. How do fathers prepare their boys to deal with rejection, pressure, anger, fear, disappointment without teaching them to suppress everything they feel? So how do they how do you teach them to deal with this stuff without making them just say, I don't want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

I hear you. Well, the most important thing is you gotta walk the walk. If you don't walk the walk, it doesn't mean anything. You can give your kid all this if you have a temper tantrum and your kid watches you, that's gonna be a far more important lesson to that kid than anything you can ever tell them. So the first thing you gotta do is look at your own behavior. And if you share some of your emotions, if you're real about them, if you express when you said and know how to handle it, that's gonna be more powerful than anything you could say. So the first thing is walk the walk. You could talk the talk also as a reinforcement, but you're already walking the walk. So that's why we talk about family meetings when you could share what's going on before they become critical, get kids comfortable about sharing what they're feeling, what they're dealing with, that's great. But if you don't model it, it's not gonna mean anything.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

I I totally agree with that. I say, I say that also. You gotta you gotta walk the walk. What they what do they say? Uh kids don't care what you say, it's what you do.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Here's uh another question. If you could give every father one piece of advice that could change their son from being a boy to a man, so that one piece of advice that could really help them in their journey from being a boy to a man, what's that one piece of advice that you would give the people out here that's gonna watch this video or anybody out there? What's one piece of advice you would give them?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Well, one be there. That's the most important thing. You gotta be present. I don't want an in and out, I want you to be there. If you work long hours of that, make sure you find the time. You know what I always say about quality time. You can't you can't put down on a calendar, I'm gonna have quality time now. It happens. And sometimes the best quality time is when you don't even mean it. I know sometimes when I take my kids, pick them up somewhere in a car, all of a sudden they open up and we have a great conversation. I couldn't have predicted that. But but if you're there, you're more likely to have it happen. So be there and again, walk the walk. Nothing's more important than walk. They're gonna learn from looking at you and how you deal with life, how you deal with your frustrations, how you deal with your anger, how you deal with your emotions. And they watch you. That's the most important thing. But you gotta be there for that to happen. So it's kind of a combination. Be there and then walk the walk.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

I got a video that I want to play for you and just get your opinion on. I want to get your opinion on this video right here.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

That's what you wanted. You said a hamburger. Wait, what did you want?

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Wow. I could write a book about that interaction alone. Unfortunately, that happens too often, especially with some younger parents who maybe didn't get all the attention when they grew up, so they're gone to the opposite extreme. Because their parent would probably grab the food, maybe a quick whack, and throw them out. And they don't, and they remember that. So they decide, oh, I'm gonna be kind and gentle and all that. Well, that's wrong. I mean, first of all, you have to have that kid was old enough in a family meeting to have a rule about how we deal with food. And if he starts with that, you immediately say, What did what are you doing? That's the first question I always ask when the kid is misbehaving. I want them to put it in their own words, not me to judge. I want them to judge themselves. What are you doing? Yeah, I'm the only one I don't like Dana Berger. Okay, what is our rule about you not liking a food? We went over it in a family meeting. What should you have done? Yeah, well, uh, I guess I should have said I really don't like it. Did you do that? No. What could you do now to make it better and that and how to fix it? That's the quickie. If the kid refuses to have that conversation, then I have what's called shutdown. And you see, when you get to it in the book, I have a whole section on shutdown. When a kid refuses to process, and that's the time. They used to call it timeout. I call it different shutdown because it's not a fixed period of time. You take the kid, you remove them, and said, until you're ready to talk about what happened and how you can take responsibility, you cannot, your world is shut down. And I've done it even with a teenager. I mean, I had my stepdaughter, I remembered she was 15 and something really went wrong in the house, and I said, We need to talk about it. No, I'm not. I'm going to my room. So she went to her room, and then I would say, wait a minute, what does she have in her room? She has a TV, she has this. So I went down and I flipped the circuit breaker for her room to make sure that she gets bored to death. And after about a half hour, she was so bored she came down and we could process and figure out what went wrong and how to make it better. And with a younger kid, it's shut down. You're in your room, you're in that, and when you're ready to talk calmly about what's going on and what you did wrong and how it could be better next time, you're going to be in shutdown. Shutdown means your world is shut down. Nothing's going on. So that's realistic because we know some kids, a lot of kids, immediately, oh no, I don't want to talk about it. You know, they want a quick punishment and get it over with and then go on and do what they want to do. But if they haven't processed it and you haven't gone through that, they're never going to learn and it's going to be repeated. So when I hear a parent says, why do I have to tell my kid six times to do that? It's just because the kid's used to knowing that the first six times they could ignore you. You taught them that.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Excellent. I really want to hear your opinion on that. And I agree. That's something new. Shut down. That is something that, hey dads, that is I think some of us do it, but we didn't have a name for it. Now you got a name, now we got a name for it. And if you don't have the book, I suggest you go out and get Dr. H's book, Family Centered Parenting. Is a book. I'm not just saying that because he's here. I'm I'm really enjoying reading this book. And I like to thank you for joining me on the podcast today. Glad to have you back. I would love to have you back whenever you want to come back.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

You'd let me know, I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Thank you, sir. Thank you. And hey, this is Bill Better Daz. I'm your host, Ramon Weatherball, Dr. H.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Take care. Bye bye.